My biggest complaint is that I don't think it squares with scripture. For example, John 3:16 says "For God so love the world..." and Romans 5:6 says that ".For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." In neither of those examples, or others I've looked at, is the idea of "the world" or "the ungodly" encumbered with the idea of only part of the world or some of the ungodly. In fact, the Greek word in John 3:16 is the masculine accusative singular noun ton kosmon, a word meaning "world, universe, or mankind." I'm not a koine Greek expert, but that term seems pretty all-encompassing. Somehow, though, and I've yet to see a convincing argument presented defending this, Calvinists construe that to mean "world in the sense of those He's chosen."
Furthermore, they say that grace is is irresistible (the "I" in "TULIP"). If God has chosen you, you will accept it. If that's so, then how does the Calvinist handle Matthew 23:37:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
or Acts 7:51:
You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
It seems to me that the nation of Israel was God's chosen people (and still are, according to some), so if He chose them, how can they resist? I've had some Calvinists hide behind the idea of God's "sovereign will" and his "permissive will" (if I have the terms right). Apparently, it's God's sovereign will that is irresistible and not necessarily known to us, and it is by this will that the elect are sealed. His permissive will, on the other, is what he has made known to us and is open to negotiation, something akin to "Here's what I really want, but if you want to reject it, well, it's your neck." According to one Calvinist I talked to, the passages above refer to God's permissive will, so Israel was free to reject the offer of salvation.
Here's my problem with that: if God says on one hand, salvation for all, as this Calvinist apologist suggested, but then, according to his sovereign will, says, "Not really. Just these people over here," doesn't that make God a charlatan? While saying one thing, he knows and means something else? If that's the case, can we trust anything God has said? It wouldn't seem so.
I have a logical problem with Calvinism too: If someone is not free to choose one thing or another, how can he be held accountable for the "choice" he does "make?" For example, if I give one of my sons only one option (i.e., to disobey me), and then he disobeys me, am I justified in punishing him? I don't see how. The theological terms "libertarian freedom" and "combatibilistic freedom" come to play here. Libertarian freedom says that man is free to choose or to choose otherwise. The compatibilistic view of freedom holds that a person is still free even if his choices are limited to only one thing, so long as that one thing is the thing that person would freely choose if given an alternative. So, if you would freely choose chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream (and who wouldn't?) if you were standing in a Braum's, then your freedom is in no way limited if you're given only that option. To me, that view just doesn't make sense at all, but Calvinism seems to be predicated up on it. "Well that guy would choose to reject God anyway, so there's really no need to give him a choice." According to Romans 1:18-20, though, God has revealed Himself to us through creation so that we are "without excuse," with Romans 2:15 telling us that "the work of the Law [is] written in [our] hearts."
From another perspective, if God's grace is truly irresistible, then what's the point in evangelism and missions? If God's will is inevitable, then why the need for human agency in the spreading of the Gospel. If God has chosen Billy in Oklahoma City or Shambel in Ethiopia for salvation, it's going to happen, right? No need to waste time and energy trying to find them, possibly losing our lives in the process, right? God's will will be done, regardless of human choices, so humans become irrelevant it would seem. From what I hear, Calvinists theologians like John MacArthur get quite agitated at such assertions, but I've yet to see a adequate rebuttal.
I'd like to say that, ultimately, who is right and who is wrong doesn't really matter -- that it's just pedantic theological wrangling, but that's not completely accurate. In terms of personal salvation, that's probably true. I stand convinced that the Spirit of the Living God resides in my heart, securing my soul to Him so that I will stand -- by His grace alone -- on that terrible day of judgment. Whether God chose me to be saved or just knew that I would (two alternate ways of interpreting the idea of predestination, of which I hold to the latter) is mostly immaterial: I stand righteous before God through the blood of His Son. In a more general sense, though, the Calvinist view does affect one's view of the world. I've heard of Calvinist Believers taking umbrage at a church teaching their children the song "Jesus Loves Me" because, in their view, they're "not sure" He does. Additionally, it taints your view of how church should be "done." I've heard Calvinists lampoon and lament, basically, the inclusion of, for lack of a better word, the arts in a worship service, as they view it as the intrusion of the world into church in order to "trick" someone into salvation, as if man has any sort of hand in that (believing is, after all, act, and Ephesians 2:78 precludes that).
So this isn't a dry, dusty, and ultimately pointless discussion and pursuit. It deepens our understanding of who God is, and helps us flesh out other doctrines and theological stances, and that's never a bad thing.
March 6 2008, 13:30:29 UTC 4 years ago
Great discussion..
Great discussion. I'm curious, though, how you would interpret verses like this:Romans 8:29-31
Romans 9:15-33
March 6 2008, 16:13:47 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Great discussion..
Let me state first that I'm aware that there are several verses that are difficult to make sense of from my Modified Arminian[1] position. That probably makes Norman Geisler's middle ground position of "Chosen, but free" make a bit more sense. At any rate, let me try to answer your question. :)In the Romans 8 passage, it seems to me that a natural way of reading that would be something like, "God knows everything, so, therefore, He foreknew who would freely choose his offer of grace, so He predestined those people to be conformed..." The "he also called" phrase is a bit more problematic, but I don't see, necessarily, any contradiction there with the Arminian position.
With regard to the Romans 9 passage, I think William Lane Craig's idea of "middle knowledge" (or "hypothetical knowledge") is helpful. Not only does God know everything, but He knows everything that would happen under given circumstances. He points to the movie Sliding Doors as a less-than-perfect but approachable example from pop culture of how that works. In his omniscience, God knows that under no circumstances would Pharaoh freely choose Him, so He is free to treat him as He does.
This passage also does not address the idea of unlimited atonement, i.e., that the blood of Christ was offered for all, nor does it indicate that God's will is that only some are saved. In fact, it seems to me that the Bible says otherwise fairly explicitly: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." -- John 12:32. Again, from my basic understanding of the Greek, I see indication of qualification there: "πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν" (pantas helkoosow pros aymowton)-- literally, "all I will draw to myself".
So, as lame and ineffective as my exegesis may be, I have to assume that there has to be a different interpretation, as the Calvinist take on that passage just doesn't square with what I see in the rest of Scripture.
[1] Modified Arminian in that I reject the notion that Salvation can be lost, one of the points upon which Arminius built his teaching.
March 6 2008, 22:48:07 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Great discussion..
Now..understand that I'm far from an expert in Calvinism. If fact, I have grown to care very little for the debate of theological issues like this because it seems to distract so much from what we are called to do. However...That doesn't seem to be the natural reading of the Romans 8 verse to me at all. That seems to be reading the passage through the lens of certain presuppositions. It doesn't say "for those whom he foreknew would chose Him he also predestined" it says "for those whom he foreknew he also predestined".
The problem I have with the whole "God knows the future so His foreknowledge is actually knowing who, as part of their free will, will chose Him" argument is the fact that you eventually have to answer this question: whose free will is supreme--God's or man's? You are making God completely subjected to the free will of man. The scripture doesn't seem to paint that picture. God chose Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3). God chose Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6-8). God chose to harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 4:21). God chose to have his Spirit leave King Saul (1 Samuel 16:1). God chose to harden Judas' heart. Jesus chose the 12 disciples (Luke 6:12). Jesus chose Paul (Acts 9). In each one of these cases, it seems to me that the free will of the man is completely subjected to the free will of God -- not the other way around.
On the subject of limited atonement. You have to ask yourself, was Christ's blood alone sufficient to purchase my salvation? If you say that it is for everyone, yet not all would be saved, then you are saying that Christ's blood alone was not enough. It also takes some act by the person. If you say that it is enough by itself, then you either have to say that it purchased salvation for everyone (universalism), or only for the elect whom God chose before the foundations of the world.
On Evangelism. God not only wills who will be saved, but also the means by which they will be saved. And, through his goodness, he chooses to use us in that process (Matthew 28:16-20). God changes a man's heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26) so that he will be receptive to the gospel. We then present the gospel to them. If God had not at first been working to change the man's heart, he would not have been receptive. We however must spread the gospel to all men because 1) that's what Jesus commanded and 2) we do not know whose hearts God will choose to soften.
March 6 2008, 23:31:28 UTC 4 years ago
Re: Great discussion..
Me too, as I tried to convey in my closing, but there is some value in such discussions (and I'm enjoying this one :), but I try not to get to worked up about them. I was just really bored at work that day. :)
I can say the exact same thing about your reading. :P The principal I'm applying there (as I'm sure you are) is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Based on my understanding from other verses, my reading of that passage seems the most natural to me.
I don't think so at all. What I'm doing is not making God to be what some have (perhaps too crudely) termed a "cosmic rapist" by forcing His love upon people. It seems to me that the Calvinists fear that God's sovereignty is destroyed if man has free will, but I think it magnifies his sovereignty and omnipotence if He can still achieve His goals while working through truly free agents. His sovereignty is only threatened if you presuppose that it is His "sovereign will" that only certain people be saved.
And I think the idea "middle knowledge" addresses some of your choosing examples, such as Pharaoh and Judas. With regard to Abraham and Israel, God chose to work through some human agent, so he chose those two for that purpose. Melchizedech is a great example that, though God chose Abraham, He did not do so exclusively. Nor were non-Israelites excluded from God's blessing (see Rahab and Ruth). I'll see if I can find the link to Craig's discussion of that. It was very interesting.
I don't think so. See "rapist" above.
I don't see how that squares with the Calvinist notion of sovereignty. If Habib's salvation depends on someone leaving the 'burbs and heading to the desert, then can God's will be thwarted if Christians choose to disobey? It seems to me also, then, that salvation does not depend on some work by Habib (like choosing to accept) but on the grace of God...and a work on the part of a Christian by choosing to share.
I don't debate that all, I just think that Jesus meant what He said when he said "I will draw all men unto myself." But if the Calvinist notion of sovereignty is correct, it just seems like inconveniencing oneself by heading to distant lands isn't strictly necessary. Sure, it would be a sin not to obey God, but it wouldn't preclude those in the highways and by-ways of being saved if God has chosen them.